107: San Juan Artisan Distillers & the Emerging Puerto Rican Craft Rum Scene with Pepe Álvarez

In this episode we talked to Pepe Álvarez, founder of San Juan Artisan Distillers, the only Puerto Rican distillery making pot still rum from fresh sugarcane juice in a true farm-to-bottle setting.

You may recall we featured Pepe as one of three interviewees in an episode back in 2021, but we wanted to bring him back for a solo interview so we could take a deeper dive into what we both think is a super interesting distillery making great rum.

It was also a chance to speak more broadly about the new wave of craft rum distilleries that have launched in Puerto Rico over the past decade or so, opening an exciting new chapter for the island's rum industry.

We discussed:

• Creating a new, unconventional style of Puerto Rican rum

• The evolution of the distillery's sugarcane farming operation

• How much help Puerto Rico's craft distilleries receive from the government's rum tax cover over relative to the big distilleries on the island

• Ideas for leveling the playing field in Puerto Rican rum

• Working with legends in rum like Frank Ward and Luis Planas

• Learning to make pot still rum on an island where no one used pot stills

• Deciding on bottling ABV

• The broader craft rum scene in Puerto Rico

• The perils of finding distribution outside the island

• Upcoming blends and releases from San Juan Artisan Distillers

• And much more!

• Oh, and John decided to replace the rapid fire segment???

You can check out San Juan Artisan Distillers' website here: https://sanjuanartisandistillers.com/

P.S. Did you know you can support The Rumcast on Patreon now and get bonus episodes, happy hours, and more? You can! Head to patreon.com/therumcast to check it out.

Episode Transcript

John: [00:00:00] Hello rum fanatics and welcome back to another episode of the Rumcast. This is the podcast that talks all things Rum Related with the people who love and shape it, and tag teaming the hosting duties for today are myself, John Gulla, and with me, Mr. Will Hoekenga. We have another great episode lined up for you today with a deep dive into a distinct distillery that I know many of us rum geeks are very excited about, uh, San Juan Artisan Distillers in Puerto Rico, and talking about many subjects related to the distillery and other subjects with their founder, Pepe Alvarez.

And Will, I know you have a lot of experience, you've visited this distillery, you've talked with Pepe before, so I know you're, you're, I feel like you have a lot more knowledge than I do, even though I feel like I'm closer and I should have more knowledge,

Will: You're geographically closer. Yeah. and and I think longtime listeners may recall that in 2021, we did an episode where I had, I had separately done a live stream, about, [00:01:00] Cane juice, rum distilleries and kind of non traditional places for that style of rum. And Pepe was one of the three people interviewed, on that live stream.

And we ended up taking the recording and

adding it to an episode of the rum cast. So we kind of covered some of the backstory of San Juan Artisan Distillers in that episode, and we, we kind of speed ran that stuff a little bit. so I'll, I'll, I'll give a little cursory overview before we

go to the interview, but before all that, I had a question for you, which is.

Do you know what

time of year it is,

John?

John: Is this a trick question?

Will: No, it's not a trick question. Do you what time of year is it?

John: what, it's, it's spring?

Will: Wrong. It is

Daiquiri season, John. Daiquiri season! And I

John: I have, how could I have not known

that?

Will: maybe it's because you live in a place where it's Daiquiri season year

John: perpetual daiquiri season

Will: And some people may be screaming

at their phone or their car audio system, whatever, right [00:02:00] now saying it's Daiquiri season all year long. Will, what are you talking about?

No matter where you are in the world,

John: Mm hmm, mm

Will: time for a Daiquiri. And while I do agree with that.

I do tend to gravitate to daiquiris around this time of year where the sun's coming out, it's nice and warm, you know, you want something cold that you can drink quickly and it just, it gives you all the vibes of summer.

And so I've just been like kind of making daiquiris left

and right, ordering them when I go to bars and things like that. And I was at Chopper recently, my watering hole of choice in Nashville when I'm

drinking rum cocktails. And I wanted a Daiquiri, but I was thinking to myself, I need to, I need to do something fun.

Like what's it, what's a Daiquiri I could do with a rum I've never had in a Daiquiri before, with one I wouldn't tip, one I, yeah, something adventurous, something I wouldn't typically

think as like my first option, even though this naturally does go quite well with a Daiquiri. and actually

just having set up that scenario, what, what direction [00:03:00] do you think I took things in?

I'll give you some hints. So I went unaged.

Um, I went, Non Caribbean,

and I went cane juice.

John: I was going to say Cane Juice, so I'm glad

that,

Will: that,

out of your mouth,

John: yeah, that's already where I was going. I

did think unaged, So we're aligned

there. I didn't expect you were going to say non Caribbean,

but the

obvious one that kind of comes to mind for me is Fiji, which I think, for

me, is one that I really enjoy, even lightly aged or unaged Fiji daiquiris.

but that's not it. so I'm going to say

American rum?

Okay. It looks like you're telling me.

Will: I, I'm not, I'm not, I'm just,

I'm just listening, giving you some head tilts

and stuff.

John: Or, we did do a deep dive into, Scottish

rums. So, that would make sense, you know?

Will: So, no, to both of those, but good, good guesses. Uh, I, I did, so I ended up, it was non

[00:04:00] Caribbean, you know, you said Fiji, it is

from a country that borders the Pacific ocean, but it's kind of the other side of the Pacific ocean. I went with El Amparo rum from Ecuador.

John: yeah, yeah.

Will: So a pot still Aguardiente, made from fresh cane juice in

Ecuador.

This was a release. I think this comes from La Maison and Velier. I think they're, they're kind of, you know, involved

John: Tied in somehow?

yeah.

Will: yeah. I always awkwardly

stumble through, like, the relationship La Maison and Velier has with producers, but they're in they're involved in some way. Anyway, the this

is not puppeteers, I wouldn't say that. I I think they would harshly object to that characterization.

John: They're in the shadows. No, They're really

not. I'm totally mischaracterizing that. Yeah,

Will: They're all about spotlighting the producer and letting the producer do their thing. So, anyway, this is a cane juice rum pot still, bottled at still strength. I believe unaged, I think most bottles, the bottles that I've seen say 57 and a half percent ABV and

generally [00:05:00] high

ABV rums like that. I'm a little skittish to put into daiquiris when I'm at home, just because

like, like I'm convinced I'm going to fuck it up in some way.

You know, I'm going to get like, I'm going to put.

John: Just

Will: going to get the ratio. I'm yeah, the balance. I'm going to mess up the balance. because you know, I, when I'm drinking a daiquiri, I want a balanced drink. I don't want to take a sip and be like, Whoa, man, that's strong. You know? I mean, every now and then maybe, but most of the time I want something refreshing and that sort of thing.

So, you know, it's just, it's hard for me to, to manage those like beastly or rums. So asking a skilled professional. from the bar world to do it is, I, I feel like a perfect opportunity for that. So anyway, I had tried El Amparo Neat. I don't have a bottle, but I, I, I'd sampled it and really enjoyed it, but I had no idea what it was going to be like in a daiquiri because I fou I found that, a lot of these Latin American cane juice rums, they work really well in daiquiris, but they could, like, Go in unpredictable directions, kind of, because they have kind of [00:06:00] adventurous flavor profiles a lot of the time.

And, first of all, John, I was not disappointed by this

Daiquiri. The fine folks at Chopper did an

amazing

job balancing it out. You know, I don't know what, what ratios they used and everything, but I wouldn't have known it was such a high proof

rum. If I hadn't had known that already, if you get what I'm saying.

so perfectly balanced,

but what I was really struck about this, it was,

and this may be where you start

to say to yourself, that sounds like

something I'm never going to order, but I was amazed. It was the most floral tasting

daiquiri.

John: You know me already well

enough to

Will: I know

you. Yeah. It was the most floral tasting Daiquiri I've ever had, which was so surprising to me because again, like I just had a sample of El Amparo, so I didn't do a super, you know, detailed analysis of it or anything. I didn't have multiple tastings, but I don't remember thinking of it as an especially floral tasting rum, [00:07:00] but it just exploded out of the glass as floral.

And it was, it was just a reminder that like, you know, I think a lot of times. When I'm at a bar, especially if I'm going there for the first time, which may be, that's why I did this. Cause I've been to chopper many times, but I always either want to try something unique they have on the menu. So, you know, something from there, as opposed to like a Mai Tai, I mean, getting a Mai Tai can be fun, but I, I often gravitate towards stuff that seems more original, you know, as opposed to just their spin on a classic or, you know, Just going with the classic daiquiri and just seeing like, can you make a good daiquiri?

I think what I need to add to my list is the unconventional fun daiquiri is what I

will describe that as. that was actually literally

what they called it. when it was brought to me, they said, did someone order a fun daiquiri?

And I was like, I think that's me. So,

um, anyway, it's daiquiri season.

Get out there,

try some new things, go to

your local

bar professionals and. Pick a rum from the back bar that you've never thrown in a [00:08:00] daiquiri and see what comes out the other end.

John: you know that that's interesting that you mentioned that because

I'm hesitant to order a daiquiri at a bar, not because I think it's going to not be good. It's more because that's like one of the few drinks that I can make

reliably at home and and not

fail. Whereas like you said, a Mai Tai or some other those

drinks that I'm just not really good at making.

So I feel like

there's added value there by me ordering it there and drinking it there. But that said. To your point, usually it's just, well, give me a daiquiri from your menu, right? I don't often think about like, hey, I get to pick the rum. And there are a few places here in Miami you can do that with, many you can't.

But, so that's, that's a good way to think about it. There's actually a guy on Florida Rum Society, gosh, and I wish I had his name right now to say, to give him credit. But all he does is post daiquiris from every single bar he goes to in Florida. So that's like his mission in life. Is he goes to a bar, he orders a daiquiri, and that is the standard by which he judges this bar

and, [00:09:00] and so I find that interesting that, that from that perspective as well, that you can do that with a daiquiri. I think it is the drink kind of to do, that way. So, but you lost me

at, like you said at,

floral. Yeah. I, I just, um,

Will: Maybe, maybe,

John: work for me.

Will: Maybe, the El Amparo

daiquiri is not the daiquiri for you, but I want you to go out there and, you know, go to, uh, Esotico

or somewhere like that and find

the, find the daiquiri for you. So, uh, it was

John: closed.

Will: Oh, it closed?

It's gone? It's gone?

John: You didn't hear? I didn't tell you this? Oh,

newsflash. Yeah, Esotico

is, well,

so here's my understanding of it and, and somebody write in and correct me on this, but

it's like temporarily

shut down, to

like, what

they said was like to rebrand it or

something.

Will: okay,

John: you can't go there right now.

the, the speakeasy that's attached to it is still open,So the Kaona Room is still open, and

there's plenty of rum and drinks available. to be had there.

I don't know what the hours are. I

don't think it's the same as Esotico, [00:10:00] but my understanding is that Daniele Dolla Pola, the owner of

Esotico, that he's off right now in, other areas of the world. He's doing a bunch of things there and that there's some work going on in Esotico. to re rebrand the whole thing and refresh it, maybe, I guess you would say.

He might argue and say, no, it's not a rebranding, it's more of a refreshing, and get back to business. So, I don't know what the update is on that, but, yeah, I do know that right now, Esotico is, Ixnay on the

Esotico, eh? Um,

Will: It's a tough word, tough word to translate into, into Pig Latin just on the fly, yeah. Um, anyway, that's, this is not a revolutionary suggestion by any means, I think this is a very common thing that rum enthusiasts do when they go to bars, but, something that I just hadn't thought to do in a while, so I would encourage everyone out there, as we open Daiquiri season here in the Northern Hemisphere, most parts of it anyway, go out there.

An order of fun daiquiri. but John, in the meantime, we have a really interesting [00:11:00] interview to get to. and I did want to kind of quickly give kind of the, a little bit of backstory on San Juan Artisan Distillers. As you said, I visited there very beginning of 2020. I've, I've mentioned it on the podcast before, only fresh cane juice run distillery that I'm aware of in Puerto Rico.

the first one in probably. I don't know, a century or so. I'm sure at some point in history, someone in Puerto Rico was distilling cane juice, rum, so really, you know, kind of the first modern distillery doing that and doing it at a really cool level, like it's an impressive facility. we've mentioned on the show before they have the, French.

Cognac style pot stills that were used at Ten Cane distillery in Trinidad before it closed. Pepe went and purchased those stills and that's what they used to make their cane juice from. they grow sugar cane right behind the distillery. they have some planted elsewhere as well. And Pepe talks about, they're kind of moving some of that around right now due to some weather reasons and stuff that he'll get [00:12:00] into.

But basically. He had been working on this since, I think 2011, 2012, sometime in there. I know he mentions the date in the episode, you know, planning sugarcane, getting ahold of the facility, building it out, all that stuff. Uh, they were getting ready to open in 2017. Hurricane Maria comes through.

devastates, the Island of Puerto Rico, destroys tons of stuff, including their sugar cane fields, damages a lot of the distillery. It didn't

like, if I'm remembering correctly, I don't think it completely like destroyed equipment or anything like that, but it, you know, repairs and stuff where, yeah, it was bad.

Um, so that was kind of like, they were just getting ready to open and. Their sugar cane got destroyed. So the cane juice rum idea had to be, it was going to take time to build that back up. So in the meantime, while they're replanting, rebuilding and everything, Pepe started importing some unaged rum from the Dominican Republic and adding various kinds of local fruits to it, which is, it was basically like, They're like a commercialized [00:13:00] version of a common way that

people enjoy Pitorro or Ron caña, which is sort of unaged moonshine rum in Puerto Rico.

it's kind of a tradit Yeah, yeah, well, higher ABV, like their more commercial version was lower ABV. Um, but you know, people add fruits and spices and things, which is, you know, a very common tradition you see throughout the Caribbean and, and expressing itself in different ways. So they launched this brand called Tres Clavos while they worked on replanting the sugar cane and everything.

in 2020, that's when they were finally able to start bottling and selling their fresh cane juice rum, which is bottled under the brand Ron Pepon.Pepon means big Pepe, which is, Pepe's father. So anyway, kind of a family homage there. They get that out in 2020, the pandemic happens. Naturally, that's a whole different kind of setback, but we talked to Pepe on the podcast, or I should say I did in the recording in 2021.

So they'd really only had like a year to kind of get Ron Pepon off the ground at that point. And this was still. [00:14:00] You know, prime COVID era, so to speak. So it was tough for them to do a lot of the stuff that they wanted to with it. So three years have passed. We wanted to kind of catch up on everything that's happened since then.

And another priority that I think we wanted to explore in the interview, you know, something that I'd noticed is on top of San Juan Artisan Distillers, you know, there are several other interesting distil, newer craft quote unquote distilleries, rum distilleries. in Puerto Rico that have popped up over the last decade or so, and I got to see a number of those during that trip, and I've been kind of surprised at how little I feel like I hear about a lot of those just in the rum enthusiast sphere, since then, and especially considering, Puerto Rico has, you know, Kind of a government entity to promote the rum industry in Puerto Rico that runs a Puerto Rico program.

Like that's what they do. They promote the Puerto Rican rum industry, but I just, I feel like I haven't heard very much [00:15:00] about these, you know, small, interesting distilleries. It's usually the bigger distilleries, the Bacardi's, the, Destileria Serralles that makes Don Q. and so that was something we talked about as well.

Just kind of like what that

landscape looks like for them. what it's like to be a small Puerto Rican rum distillery and you know, how much of the benefit do they see from that? So we, the conversation went a

lot of really interesting directions and, Pepe is always an interesting guy to talk to.

So I'm excited for people to hear this one.

John: Yeah. And you know, you mentioned it's an

interesting rum. I've had the opportunity to try this one a few times at some rum shows here, even though you cannot find it in the

us to

my

knowledge, right. It's still only in Puerto Rico at the moment

Will: Yeah. When he's, he's looking

for distributions, they're looking for the right partner, which is something he

talks about as well.

John: And, you know, every so often we bring to the show someone like this who is doing, something that we highlight as

a really fine example of rum making,

and that we want to push forward and say, Hey, this is something that we

want to see more of. And in just a [00:16:00] quick tidbit on what you said in

terms of like, He's in this island, that

he's kind of going against the grain, as are some other craft distillers doing a cane juice rum in Puerto Rico, doing it in pots still, and we talk about that in the interview, but that it's not just interesting, right?

This is actually incredibly good

rum.

Will: Yeah, it's, it's very good.

John: like, oh, interesting, you're doing something different. No, he's really making excellent rum, and that we want to

highlight that it's very good and very

different.

Will: Yeah, like it's something I think we've mentioned in the past and also Frank Ward talked about working with Pepe, Frank Ward of, previous, part of the ownership of Mount Gay, um, and a distiller in his own right behind the Mount Gilboa brand, the last Ward rums, you know, released by Velier and stuff, you know, Pepe hired him as a consultant when he was sort of, you know, Figuring out, designing the distillery, formulating the rum recipe and stuff.

He also brought in Luis Planas, who was a veteran of Bacardi. So he brought in people who really

John: Yeah.

Will: [00:17:00] they're doing. this wasn't someone just kind of experimenting and figuring things out on the fly, which, you know, plenty of distilleries go that route and sometimes you get really great results from that too.

So, you know, not looking down on that at all, but anyway, they're serious about rum and that's always great to see. So, yeah, I'm excited for people to hear the interview and we'll take a quick break and then go right over.

Will: [00:00:00] Pepe, I want to, you know, we talked to you on the podcast. It was actually, I was looking back this morning. It was early 2021. I think how, when did you, when was the first bottle of Ron Pepon available for sale?

Pepe: we started our project I created the corporation in

2011

Will: Right. But like the, the, the first time people could, could buy your cane juice, rum product. When was that

Pepe: yeah, that was, uh, 2020. and so we started harvesting, uh, our sugar cane and started, Mainly fermenting, bottling, our Ron Pepon and

selling in 2020.

Will: yeah, so you had everything set to go, you have Hurricane Maria, you build everything back up, 2020, then you have the pandemic, so the timing has just been like crazy, but we, we talked to you in 2021, so you kind of, You'd had a year, I think, to kind of get [00:01:00] Ron Pepon off the ground, you know, get some bottles out there.

it's 2024 now. I know, you, you've just gotten back from several trips traveling around the world. what have kind of the last three years been like,what's changed for you over that time? what are kind of your priorities with Ron Pepon right now? bring us up to date.

Pepe: Well, after, as you well said, the last, five or six years have been, like the seven plagues of Egypt over Puerto Rico

Will: Yeah.

John: Of

Pepe: And, I mean, we, you know, we were just finishing our beautiful project and everything was pristine and immaculate ready to inaugurate in 17 and we got smacked by the hurricane before opening the door.

that was a big, big setback. Not only economically, but emotionally, it was, it was really tough on everybody. know, I, I couldn't be interviewed because they would ask me how agriculture was doing in Puerto Rico. And I, you know, I would break up in tears. and I. I couldn't talk. not only because of me, because I saw [00:02:00] all the damage it did to all the Puerto Rican agricultural initiatives throughout the island.

I've been a I've been a, in agriculture all my life because I started my landscaping business and I was 17 and I grew my plants and I had farms and I've always been involved in agriculture and I've been a bona fide, agricultural entity. Since I was 18 years old. So I, I know, and I know very well, all the efforts and, and, and the work and, you know, Puerto Rican farmers are always struggling up against.

there are so many odds against them and, and, and to see

their efforts destroyed, it was simply disheartening.

Will: Yeah.

Pepe: Uh, we got hit by Maria. Then we got hit by a hurricane Fiona that flooded. We had a hundred acres of hurricane that we had planted through sweat and effort and money, and a lot of work. we got hit by those two hurricanes.

Then after the hurricanes came, the pandia, they told us we couldn't work the fields. We couldn't [00:03:00] do anything. So that effort of restoring everything was held back and, you know, we got held back by that. And then after that, something clicked in, in people's mentality that, you know, we had 15 agricultural employees when we started developing the project, and it was like this dynamic. Everybody wanted to be part of it and help. And right now we have, four agro employees, down from 15 and there's no way we can find recruit, any kind of money, to get these agro hands to work. So we, we haven't been able to, restore.the large parcel, the 50 acre parcel that we had because I, I figured out that it didn't make any sense to restore that parcel.

if it is, it's bordered by a river, which is very beneficial because it's getting impacted. That parcel is like a peninsula and it's impacted by the river that runs [00:04:00] around it. So you have natural water hitting hitting the sugar cane. The sugar cane would grow like weed. But every time you had a storm or anything, it would be completely like a 15 foot wave breaking over the sugar cane and everything got get destroyed.

So I recently returned those, 50 acres to the Department of. The land authority of Puerto Rico, who leases the land to us, and I was able to identify a 60 acre farm. It's about half a kilometer down the street from our distillery and my, my latest and probably my last, it did into, you know, coming back to the original amount of hurricane that we used to produce. Is to plant that 60 acres. So that's my pet project right now. I'm very much involved in leading that. I'm securing the land lease for that and I'm securing, [00:05:00] different, things that we have to do there and the different programs that we can participate and structuring financing to develop that.

But if we manage to do that, we're going to have to evolve in a almost. 95 percent automated process. We can't, we can't depend like we did when we had the 15 guys that we would plant the sugar cane, we would cut the sugar cane. It was like an army of guys, you know, and we, at that moment, we couldn't afford buying a 500, 000 dollar sugar cane harvester, which is what they cost.

And aside from that, there's other equipment that you need. right now we're, Our latest effort will be to plant those 60 acres to get a automated, sugar cane cutting machine and and tractors where the sugar cane will be thrown into these wagons. We're, we're going to be amending our sugar cane mill [00:06:00] that will have, like, an automated table that the.

Will: Hmm.

Pepe: The sugar cane wagons, they raise and they dump the sugar cane, so it's all automated. It goes into the conveyor and then it goes into the mills. So we have a, we have a project also ahead of us that we need to amend and put up to date and give the capacity of the sugar cane mill to do this.

So we continue with our intention of growing and restoring our original, original reason of existing, which was creating the first agrícola style of rum ever made in Puerto Rico.

no one out and distilled in French cognac pot stills. I think we're the only ones in the world doing this, or maybe there might be some guy, and I think there's a guy in Guadalupe that has the exact same model of me.

Not, not Guadalupe, Marie Galante, which is even more remote.so,you know, we're going forward and it's, it's a project we love and that's [00:07:00] what we, you know, we're not, you know, we'll keep on fighting

and try to finish that project as soon as possible. So we can increase

John: It sounds like a lot of transition. Yeah.

Pepe: Yeah, we need, you need to evolve.

You need to evolve. It's been a, it's been a, it's been a tough 10 years. and what we're doing right now, what we've been doing for a while is getting a very good high grade molasses. when the distillery is in the downtime, because we don't have sugarcane on hand, to process or, or produce our agri cola rum, we're, we've been distilling from high test, molasses, very clean, high, super high quality molasses.

And we have. Quite a bit of molasses, rum, aged in barrels, which has come incredibly, incredibly, incredibly good. And we're launching it at four or five years of aging, [00:08:00] and we don't even have a name for it. Uh, we're right. We're designing the labels. We're choosing the bottle and we're going to be launching that soon.

and we plan to continue doing that. because we don't want the three to sit idle, you know, every other year hurricane comes by and destroy the hurricane or knocks us off our socks. we're able to do something else, but everything that goes into from pep talk. bottle, will always be 100 percent Agricola rum.

It will not have a one, a quarter of an ounce. It won't have anything that will have

to do with A hundred percent, rum made. Yesterday we were analyzing our cost of producing a bottle of Agricola Rum. We're looking at around $12 a bottle, a liter, you know, a liter. That, that is outrageous. I mean, it's super expensive.

We're set selling it wholesale in the market for around 28 [00:09:00] bucks.my production cost is around 1250. When you add the overhead of the structure. You know, the, the carrying cost of the distillery, which is quite big and you factor in, you know, you're looking at my final cost is probably. I don't know, 18 bucks a bottle finished and we're selling it for 28 and then you have to give sales to commission for the cost of sales.

And delivery and distribution and the commissions that everybody

gets. So

Will: And that's, that's the, that's, that's the unaged product, right?

Pepe: that's the unaged product. Yeah. That's not even. Not even placed in a bottle. So Jose was telling me that I think we need to, you know, you know, hike this price because we're basically almost breaking even doing this, but to me, it's something symbolical, even if I don't make money out of the product, it's, it's extremely symbolical and important for me that we continue to persevere [00:10:00] and.

That we are able to develop into a size because what we need, we will be able to lower our cost if we augment volume. And that is why we're going ahead with planting. this will be honestly, my last ditch effort, uh, to I'm 66 years old right now. So, this is going to take a couple of years to do and I'm going to go in there and do it.

And, this is I just hope that. You know, we'll be able to come

through with this plan.

Will: Yeah, no, it's, it's, um, we always try to, I guess when we talk to producers who are working with sugarcane and fresh sugarcane juice and doing the farming component and everything, we always hope it comes through to people. How much. More work that can take, um, and that's not to diminish molasses rums because molasses rums can be fabulous.

And obviously they take a lot of work and effort to, to make something good there. And, I mean, you were just praising the quality of the molasses [00:11:00] product that you guys are making too. but yeah, so much work goes into it and especially as you try to grow and expand and everything. but you know, I, we've seen you at more and more rum shows in the U S more and more people have gotten to actually try Ron Pepon.

we've heard great feedback about it on the show. I know we've told you that we're fans of it. and I know one other thing you've been working on is just how to get it to more places beyond Puerto Rico. What has that? Challenge. Cause that's a whole other type of challenge, right? Like the, the run business is essentially challenges on challenges and challenges.

You have making it, and there's all the challenges that go in there, but also getting it to people. What is that process been like for you as you've gone out there as kind of the salesman, trying to get it into more markets and things like that,

Pepe: We've been, I've been traveling for the last, five years. I've been to over 20 expos, throughout the U. S. We just went to the [00:12:00] largest, spirits, trade show in the USA, which is a WWSI event that was just held in Las Vegas. It's strictly, uh, and wine.but mostly spirits and we've been, offering our product, which has, it has definitely an important space and it's a niche product.

and we've had dozens of distributors try them. We've been able to, through this last show, there's a couple of parties that are seriously interested. We're talking to a group from Washington. We're talking to a group from New York. We're talking to a group from Texas.

We're because the U. S. is so big,

Will: right? There's so many different markets you can enter and they all have different rules, different nuances and things.

Pepe: yeah, and not everybody has the reach to reach all the, you know, all [00:13:00] the 50 states. So what a lot of distilleries do is they select different distributors for different areas like the Southwest, Northeast, Southeast. And so forth. so we're working hard on that, but we haven't been able to secure a solid distributor. Uh, agricole rum is, is an acquired taste, when you try a very light white rum, distilled in a, in a, in a column, that has been distilled at 170 from 170 to 189 proofs, there's distilleries that Still at 189 proof. 190 is considered a neutral spirit. It's a vodka and there is that distilled all the way up to 189.

They're just half percent away from being welcome. So, when you try our product, that's like, it's like a syrup of sugarcane with alcohol in it. it's it's an acquired taste and and it I do believe and I feel that we [00:14:00] have more. People liking, agricole style rum because it's so different and it's so wholesome and it's, it's so beautiful and

it makes such great cocktails to drink straight, but yet,

John: I will say this real quick just to interrupt that having had a chance to try yours and now, you know, other cane juice rums from around the world, I want to give credit where I think it's due, which is that I believe that, Ron Pepon, the, the white rum is probably one of, if not the most approachable cane juice rum, that I can think of.

So I think that that's worth talking about. Mentioning, because to your point, there is an acquired taste for a lot of cane juice rum for people that are coming from molasses spirits, and just learning and getting into this and going, Whoa, that's very different. That said, I do think that there's some credit there to you all for doing what you're doing and making it very approachable in its, nature.

Pepe: Yeah, that that is that is definitely our goal. but this is a distillery business is a is a very tough business as you must have heard from many, many distillers and it takes a lot of [00:15:00] love and passion and and desire to to make this happen. but we're growing a little bit every year and, we just need to find the right. The right people in the States to help us distribute the product. We're still available. We're in negotiations with a few companies, but we want to be placed in the right hands. We don't want to hook up with the 1st 1 that comes by. So we've, you know, we get requests from people all the time, but then, you know, it's these shady proposals and, like, uncompleted.

Information that we get from them. And so, you know, we, we want to be with solid people of the, of the industry and the business. So hopefully we'll have that happen. Jose, my son just went to the American craft,

convention. And

Will: ACSA convention.

yeah,

Pepe: yeah, a month after I went to, to Las Vegas, I just went to the Alimentaria [00:16:00] fair in Barcelona.

And from there. Madrid and I met with five or six, distributors there. And we're also looking at the potent, the huge potential that the European market has, Puerto Rico has kind of flipped in its laurels because it's selling, we sell Puerto Rico in general, sell so much rum to us and in Puerto Rico has kind of, Oversight oversighted the huge market that Europe is Europe is is has less population, but, it has a lot of acquisitive power.

There's a lot of, you know, all the huge cities are cities that are super populated and they have, they have a lot of

money to spend and they like good stuff and they don't they don't care what they spend. If it's, uh,

John: These darn Americans with their McDonald's and their Coca Cola and stuff. Yeah, Europe is much better. I agree. Just having come back from there. There's a lot of good stuff over there. Yes.

Pepe: yeah, [00:17:00] I mean, the thing is with the US it has such a huge population, you know, it's, 350 million people and you have a, you have a segment that has the acquisitive, power to, you know, not everybody can pay $50 for a bottle of rum or. Yeah, so you'll grab the cheap stuff that's at the channel.

You know, if I'm, if I'm making minimum wage, well, that's what I can afford. And that's life. but I think that Puerto Rico has oversighted, the potential of the European market and has. All it's egg in the U. S. market because we're exporting everything that we produce. And, we are, we're, we're not, you know, we're incentivized by the local government to sell toward the U.

S. for obvious reason. And, uh, I think that you can't have all your eggs in the same basket right now. The Dominican rooms are killing it in Spain and in all Europe, they've all the great brands from the Dominican Republic [00:18:00] are all over the place in Europe, and they're killing it there. And so I'm. You know, we're, we're in the works of developing a market for Europe.

I've been counseling the local, the local rum of Puerto Rico, company that directs the, philosophy of marketing for Puerto Rican rums in the island that, you know, we need to, we need to take a look at. These guys over here, you know, the world is big and everything has gone global. We can't stay focused in 1 geographic region only because if things change in that region for all of a sudden, for whatever reason, and you're left out in the cold.

So you need to have your, you know, but you need to have a few baskets around the world plan a.

Will: Yeah. Yeah. I want to circle back to some of that. cause you and I had an interesting conversation a few days ago, but one thing before we get too far ahead of ourselves, you know, you mentioned the molasses from that you guys are doing, [00:19:00] that you have in barrels that you have, you haven't released the product yet.

It doesn't have a name. I want to talk a little bit about. How you guys make rum at San Juan Artisan Distillers because one of the things that really stood out to me the first time I met you and learned about the distillery was not only, you know, we talked about all the efforts you're already doing, you know, investing in growing sugarcane, everything like that, but you also Brought in really smart people when you were getting started.

I, I remember when we had Frank Ward on the podcast, who, you know, formerly was part of Mount Gay. he's been doing consulting work for a little while, but he told us that he's very, Selective with his consulting work. He only likes to do consulting projects. If it's a project that sounds interesting and fun to him.

And, he named your project specifically as one that he had recently done that was really interesting to him. Um, I know you also brought in Luis Planas at one point for some consulting work who had formerly been at Bacardi. So you [00:20:00] brought in these really smart people. what was the process like of you build a distillery, you have the sugar But now you need to figure out what is our rum going to taste like?

There's so many different, decisions you can make. I know you brought in your son, Jose, as the distiller, you guys were experimenting with all sorts of stuff. You have Frank Ward, you have Luis Planas. what, how long did that project, that process take to arrive at your recipe, essentially for rum?

and what stood out to you about working with, with someone like Frank?

Pepe: Well, Frank is a very dear friend. He came in as a consultant, and we've, you know, we're friends and we, we talk, we send messages and, all the time. And we have, we have something going on that we need his help. He is always a hundred percent willing. He's a. He's a phenomenal person, and he is one of the persons that knows more of rum in the whole world than I know.

his experience is vast, it's enormous, and he is [00:21:00] the perfect gentleman as well. So, when we built the distillery, as you mentioned, we had Luis Planas, who is, it could be Frank's counterpart in Puerto Rico.

Will: huh.

Pepe: And Luis is a perfect gentleman as well. Oh, and Luis Was consulting for us and he was helping us to structure everything and guidelining us and showing us directions because I had never done this before.

I mean, I started in an industry. I knew nothing about it when I started the project. And I decided to get into this in 2008 and created the group, started traveling and doing research, went to Martinique, saw the model in Martinique. I visited 10 distilleries there. Thank you. And I said, this is what I want to do in Puerto Rico, because I want to produce something that is not going to be You know, bumping heads with what is being made already in Puerto Rico and be one more distillery doing the same thing and trying to compete something against, you know, [00:22:00] these huge industries.

so, my idea was to grow the sugarcane and by coincidence, the, distillery that I purchased that was in Trinidad, which was owned by, Louis Vuitton,

Moet Hennessy group. They started the 10 cane, in Trinidad, and they were in the, in the, in the building of, What was the name of the, the brand?

Will?

Will: 10 Cane.

Pepe: no. no. I mean, the, the, the, the, the old,rum that Velier used to, Velier sells that they, they bought from,

that was there in the same building in

Will: Oh, Caroni, Caroni, yes.

Pepe: which is a legendary rum. It's, it's, it's something, you know, it wasn't successful. It was a business disaster. Nowadays, a bottle will cost you 3, 000 or 4, 000.

so this distillery, Louis Vuitton Moet Hennessy came in and decided to revive, and in the same distillery, that historic building where [00:23:00] Caroni was, and they built a brand new distillery and they hooked, associated with Trinidad distilleries and it didn't work for them because it didn't make sense they were doing sugar cane anymore.

Agricole style rum, or Agricole rum, but they were filtering it so much that it tasted like what the American taste, normal profile of a light

rum tasted.

Will: Yeah, it didn't have as much of that, that cane, kind of fresh cane character in it.

Pepe: that was completely eliminated because that it's a very difficult market flavor. It's a very difficult

flavor to market. It's very difficult. It's, you know, it's not for the masses.

John: It seems like a bad strategy, right? They're like, yeah, we're gonna do something completely different and then at the last moment they're like, wait, we need to make this taste like everything else. Yeah.

Pepe: then the project that was not successful, according to them, and they [00:24:00] decided to sell the plant. And as I was building this here, I was offered this. And would you like to come and see these equipment where we want to get rid of this stuff? So I flew over there. I bought the whole thing and

I brought it over.

So, by

Will: you, you already had that, that Holstein still at that point, didn't you? So,

Pepe: thought that I would. I visited, St. George distillery in Alameda. They were super kind and they're such good people. they showed me their whole distillery and they have five or six, uh, Holstein style, pot stills that they do different things there. And it's such a fantastic operation.

And that was the model that I was about to recreate I was. Going to install 5 pot stills, of the German, modern technology of distilling, which you do about, you know, double distillation in 8 hours, but then the, distillery in France, the opportunity in Trinidad, the French distillery, The opportunity fell on my hand.

I said, this is even more wonderful. I mean, [00:25:00] to be able to buy these three cognac pot stills made in cognac and champagne and distilled sugar fermented sugar cane juice from my farm in a French cognac pot still there's, as I mentioned earlier, there's a. I think there's one distillery that does it in Marie Galante.

I don't think anyone in the states right now has a setup of distilling sugarcane juice and French cognac pot stills, the Charentais style, pot still. So it, it's a, it's a, it's a ultra unique profile. It's, it's something that's really, really fantastic.

And it's quite unique.

Will: did, as far as your molasses rum goes, do you guys approach how you ferment and distill that differently than how you do, the Ron Pepon rum, or is it essentially the same process?

Pepe: Process we did still 3, 4 days, sometimes 5 days and we just let it sit there and then it goes through the process of distillation. It takes us. Almost 8 hours to [00:26:00] distill in our, we call our dirty pot still, which is the pot still where you distill the fermented juice. Then we have that about 35 percent alcohol and we store that.

And just to give you an idea yesterday. We were, calculating, how much. Sugar cane and how many batches of, fermented juice we have to distill to create one batch. We get around 300 liters of alcohol at 35% in one batch of desolation of 2000 to 200 to 2,500 liters of sugar cane use. So. Then we have to add 1500 liters minimum, to our 2500 liter pot still.

So you're talking that we need five destillations, five days of milling sugar cane. Five days of fermentation, you know, almost a month of cutting sugar cane to process that to [00:27:00] then distill the five batches of the 35% alcohol and raise it up to 1500 liters in our finishing pot still, which only re distills it, it has never been touched by juice.

So it's, it's in a very clean Oh, it's, it's always in a very clean septic state. we basically get maybe 400 liters. So You're looking at a month of work.

Will: Right.

Pepe: To get 400 liters of rum, so 70 percent alcohol, which, it is a lot of, a lot of

work.

John: and you mentioned alcohol there in terms of the ABV and I wanted to talk a little bit about that too in terms of the bottling ABV that you've chosen. So you've already got all of these things going for you, at least for rum geeks like us, right? Pot still, check. Cane juice, check. No additives, check.

And now you're saying, well, we're also going to go higher than 40 percent ABV. Uh, your, your white rum is, I believe it's 45 percent ABV bottling strength, and then [00:28:00] 43 for the Añejo for the rum pipon. so, I wanted to ask you a little bit about what thought went into that, how you arrived at those numbers, and how that all worked out with what you were just talking about.

Pepe: Well, it does cost us more money, to make them higher ABV as a matter of fact, we raised the percentage of from Pepón Añejo to 45%. Because Jose Roberto, my son, who is in charge of, he runs the distillery. basically he runs everything and I, I don't interfere in, in

that part. I'm just,

you know,

Will: Would, would, would Jose say the same thing? Would he say, yeah, my dad never interferes?

John: ha, ha, ha!

Pepe: but then he wouldn't, he knows I'm always, I'm always,

John: Ha, ha, ha!

Pepe: I'm always around asking questions, but you know, and I, I, I make pointers, but I, I do my. Very best that, you know, he, he's doing a wonderful job and,

Will: Yeah.

Pepe: and, he loves what he does and he recommended that we go 45 [00:29:00] percent and I didn't really understand why, cause I felt 43 percent for both products was a nice niche.

as you know, most Agricole rums are bottled at 50%. They're very, they're very. They have a high alcohol content. So that was fine to go 45. And then Ron Pepon, añejo, right now we're bottling at 45. You can definitely feel stronger aroma, uh, more, more concentrated aging, the aging process is, is more vivid, is more present than at 43.

tiny bit. But the trend of the market is, as you've seen, everybody is bottling even rums at barrel strength with, I mean, I'm 66 years old. If I take a sip of a 65 percent alcohol shot, it's going to burn my throat. I mean, I'm going to, so maybe, you know, the younger generations have fresher throats or it's awful.

It was tiring.

Will: They're not as seasoned. [00:30:00] Yeah.

John: ha!

Pepe: it's really strong and, but it's the trend and it's what the bartenders like, and it's what the, you know, rum geeks are liking more and more each day. So we are a consistent, we are looking at probably launching single barrels that we've selected, like a very special expression and bottle them at probably barrel strength and come out with something like that, or maybe 55 percent alcohol or 56.

We're also looking at some of the, we have aging. We're also I, since I was in Spain recently, I contacted a supplier in Jerez to buy some sherry, uh, or a, a. Some sherry barrels to do, you know, maybe a very small batch of an expression that will have a second six months barreling in a, in a sherry cask and maybe do something with, [00:31:00] cognac barrels with limousine wood from France and maybe do a finishing on that and maybe do another one with some other wood.

We've been seeing the Amburana wood from Brazil, the Japanese. Are using a lot and it gives it this spicy, incredible profile and taste and it's very rare. We don't want to completely repeat everything that people have been doing for the past years. We want to come in with a different proposal and some new angle and do something different as we always have had.

Will: yeah. One of the, one of the things I wanted to ask you about is, You know, you've been able to take this rum around the world, you know, get in front of rum enthusiasts, see their reactions to it, we've also touched on how different what you do is from what people think of as Puerto Rican rum, and, there are so People in Puerto Rico who have been part of the rum industry in some capacity.

And you were talking about how you had Luis come and consult. but there's lots of people who, you know, have worked for some of [00:32:00] the bigger producers and their lives have been in rum. when, when people like that come to the distillery. What kind of like reactions have you seen from people who are a part of the Puerto Rican rum industry when they see someone making, okay, instead of molasses, we're going to do fresh sugar cane juice instead of column stills.

We're going to, we're going to do pot stills. is there a positive reaction to that? What, what does it look like?

Pepe: The reactions have always been amazing. from all the way up to the most well known, lifelong distillers of Puerto Rico, they have always, when they've had contact with me, they have always said that. They admire the effort that we're doing and what we're doing, because it's something that they always had personally in the back of their minds that someday they would be able to have their own a place similar to this and that they could produce their own because they have such, such [00:33:00] enormous knowledge and a wealth of knowledge of producing rum that they kind of, kind of identify themselves, with what we're doing.

And. They simply give us the hug and, you know, they say, you guys are, you know, and, and I had, we admire where you, and I'm like, you know, I'm just a rookie, you know, I mean, I've been at 12 years. But they, they recognize and appreciate and the camaraderie is incredible. We have received, enormous support from both said, I guess, and Bacardi, when we've had, you know, big bumps in, in the road that, you know, with the struggles with the hurricanes and, and, and we've Fall into a crisis all of a sudden.

They have been always, I mean, everyone, everyone in, in of the management of Bacardi in including their, main distiller, they have always been open arms, to, to assist us and help us in any way that we can. [00:34:00] And Serralles has been exactly the same. they have been. You know, incredible. And Luis Planas, I still talk with Luis every time I have a doubt or something, I call Luis, Luis will take a call from anyone, and he will advise, and he feels that he's obliged to pass his life knowledge, to others and younger generations.

And, Newer initiatives and it's, it's really great, here we ran into a problem that, most of our consultants and most of the people aside from Frank Ward, which, you know, had his pot stills and knew how to perfectly how to distill impossible in Puerto Rico. No one had distilled in pot stills ever.

So we have. Three cognac pot still sitting here. Okay, how do we do this? And with Frank helped a lot, but we had to, you know, source also additional help. Uh, we brought in a cognac distiller, uh, very good friend. And from cognac, his dad had [00:35:00] 28 of these pot stills and he grew up running with his business with his dad.

He's running the operation on operation doing Pisco in Peru. And we were going As our head distiller and the hurricane simply wiped our plans away and he skipped and went to Peru and lives there happily. He has a wife and he's staying there, but we also he came here, spent about 2 weeks with us. And he said, guys, this is the way to.

Use these things. So we, we really did, you know, we did have three, four solid, pot still consultants that came over and everyone gave us our version. Everybody gave us our, their report. We documented everything. And then we went ahead and did things as we thought were the, you know, out of all the opinions, we make our own opinion on how to go and how to proceed and create our own profile and create our own thing,

Will: I wanted to go back a little bit, something that we've talked about on other [00:36:00] episodes of the podcast, that comes up a lot in rum conversations is the rum cover over in Puerto Rico, which, essentially like I've mentioned this on the show before, but just at a very high level of what that is, just a quick review.

It's basically. Excise taxes on Puerto Rican rum sold in the U. S. are returned to Puerto Rico. it's a similar relationship with the U. S. Virgin Islands as well. And then some of that money can then go back to distilleries as subsidies as well. So Puerto Rico can kind of choose how they, you know, want to give that out.

we've talked before about, Some of the benefits that can have for the Puerto Rican rum industry. But I think it's typically discussed through the lens of how it benefits sort of the big producers in Puerto Rico. So I wanted to kind of get the small producer, you know, the, the craft distillery perspective, because I know you're there in Puerto Rico.

There are other smaller craft producers on there. some of whom we've talked to before. What does that? Have a similar impact on you guys. What is, how [00:37:00] do you see, you know, a lot of funds from the rum cover over coming to you as well? And how do you kind of manage that?

Pepe: Well, as, as you know, the, the, rum tax rebate program was, implemented in 1917 when, during the Foraker Act, passed by Congress, it would automatically give Puerto Ricans U. S. citizenship, and Puerto Ricans were given U. S. citizenship so they could be sent to the First World War, and that is, that is the main reason we were given citizenship.

Uh, We were a territory that, you know, a very poor little island in the middle of the Caribbean, a paradise, a beautiful place, great, you know, amazing people. Puerto Ricans have, you know, we live in such a privileged place in the world, such a beautiful place that. You know, we're simply in awe of our, of our land and our island and our beaches and everything that [00:38:00] is Puerto Rico, represents Puerto Rico.the tax cover over was extended back then in order to give Puerto Rico an incentive to produce more sugarcane, to develop the sugarcane industry, to keep developing other products that are derived from sugarcane. but that kept growing and growing and growing. The sugarcane industry flourished.

And, once, the sugarcane industry collapses, some of the big families that, you know, We're producing sugar cane mainly a switch to, okay, well, let's make rum then we have all this sugar cane and I'm sure they had been making rum for 100 years or so they had always been tinkering and maybe having a small production and little by little it started entering the U.

S. and it started gaining traction. And so the U. S. decides it's basically an incentive that was created to help develop. And this is a way it's described in the law. [00:39:00] It's created to help develop a 3rd world island, which is Puerto Rico at that moment, and to incentivize the economy. So it wasn't it was 1 of the 1st incentive, incentive.

Programs that were created to help lift quality of life in Puerto Rico and modernize Puerto Rico and in developed industry in Puerto Rico that has been going back and forth for since then, and, are larger producers. They, you know, definitely take a very large share of, of, of the monies that are returned to Puerto Rico, uh, yearly, the, and I think that,they are completely entitled to it because they're the ones who are producing it and, you know, God bless them and, and I think they're completely 100 percent entitled to receive,the money they receive.

I also [00:40:00] feel that the craft industry, Puerto Rico has developed 10 small, medium sized distilleries like mine. And, I mean, I feel that the Puerto Rican government, I think, has progressed a lot and I think it has evolved. I've been, I've been here for three different administrations of the three, terms of governor and I've seen how the mentality has kept evolving progressively in support of the craft distilleries. Yet there is a long way to go. We, we do not receive, I feel we do not receive a fair share in incentive. And I think the Puerto Rican government is being a little bit nearsighted, and not promoting, maybe new players that can evolve from a craft distillery, grow into a medium sized distillery.

[00:41:00] And eventually turn into a large distillery and, and, and generate, income for Puerto Rico and create jobs. We are Puerto Rico's the rum capital of the world. We work, we produce huge amount of, of amounts of high quality, regulated, wonderful rums 'cause our, our large houses produce amazing, amazing rums as well.

And I am an admirer and a fan of. The two large houses that exist in Puerto Rico, three large houses or four, and they have done, they've been working at this for 100 years. And so we have, we have some time to catch up, but little by little, we're getting that way. Anyway, I feel that the Puerto Rican government is, although there has been progress. I think that it's being a little bit nearsighted, as I mentioned before, and not promoting an alternative. What I am doing, what I [00:42:00] am producing has nothing to do, nothing to do in the ballpark of the large manufacturers in Puerto Rico. This is a completely new proposal. This is a completely different product.

Every single thing that I make in this distillery, there is nothing like it amongst the other brands. So I feel that, It is a work in progress. Puerto Rican craft distilleries need to get united. We need to create a, a chapter of Puerto Rican distilleries and we need to unite in force and we need to go to our senators and our legislators and our governor and our directors of different agencies that are related to our industry and, and, Have them see the importance that you, you have, you can, you, you need, you need to have like a, a, a nursery where you're having, it's a little nursery where you have 10 distilleries that are trying to grow and they're struggling. [00:43:00] It's an incubator of businesses, basically, but you need to, give them factual, factual help. I mean, and that is a, that is a struggle, you know, it is, it is an absolute struggle. We are, we are taxed. So small distilleries are taxed. Much more than the largest deliveries and in our finished product, which is completely unjust.

And I've been carrying the torch complaining about this and trying to have this revised. How is it possible when you compare American craft? distilleries are taxed, 2, 25, per absolute gallon of alcohol. That is alcohol at 90%. You know, like, they're paying like a couple of bucks per case.

Yeah. And they're protected, and the U. S. Senate and Congress, I know they have gone through huge struggles, and it's been a strong fight as well to be able to, to, to achieve all these goals, and they're [00:44:00] doing great, against all opposition, but, you know, it, it keeps being, you know, it, it is in place right now, so they're being incentivized, and you've seen some craft distilleries in the States that have grown, you know, exponentially enormous, like, Enormous.

and the island in Puerto Rico, we need to follow that example. We need to make justice to people who have a distillery in the island

of Vieques, you know, Crab Island and.

Will: Crab Island. Uh huh.

John: Mm

Pepe: make a fantastic product and, and they're great people and, but these guys are in Vieques for God's sake, you know, you, you need to throw these guys a rope and give 'em a hand and, you know, they need to take everything to Vieques.

They do everything in Vieques and then they need to bring it over here.

Will: Yeah.

Pepe: you know, we're, we're carrying our own torch trying to, maintain and develop our agricola style rum. Which, you know, we've been got, we've gotten [00:45:00] hit in back and forth with all these things that have occurred in the last 10 years.

It hasn't been the best period of Puerto Rico or the best timing for me, but we're persevering. I mean, my, my son host is 33 years old. He has his whole life ahead of him. So we keep seeing this as a, as a mission to. Yeah, eventually be able to market our products and grow and, and progress and, and improve the quality of our products where you're seeking to that all the time.

We, we do not compromise anything here. Everything that has to be. Perfect. And everything has to be top quality or it won't go out the door going back to the tax rebate. I feel that we're the stillers are entitled or should be entitled. And there should be a review of what craft distilleries receive. We don't receive anything.

I mean, compared to what is received on the other side. And it's, [00:46:00] it's, it's, a struggle. I mean, Rums of Puerto Rico does help us and does promote events and does promote, assistance.

Throughout the years, they have assisted and they have a great team of people working, but their hands are tied. They do not make the policy. They do not write the policy. The policy is hand to them of what they can do and what they cannot do. They also have a limited budget, so if they don't have the money to help us, you know, they can't help us.

But I feel that craft distilleries should be granted part of the tax rebate that Puerto Rico receives just as a, as an investment for the future and as investment to guarantee that these guys won't disappear because distilleries could easily disappear if you're in a business for 10, 12, 15 years and you're, you're not really making money and, you know, you're, it's not happening because you're competing against, industry. that receives all these [00:47:00] benefits. And on the other hand, the small, distilleries that are struggling to survive are not receiving, you know, a,

anywhere near what But the benefits of the largest that is received, which I feel they're completely entitled and I admire those companies and they're there.

Those families are brilliant and what they built is, is, is simply awesome. But I think that the government. Has to exercise, some recognition that it's worth looking at all these initiatives. We have 10 small distilleries in the island in mind, which is, you know, this is a 15, 000 square foot distillery.

It's not a it's not a garage.

Will: Yeah.

Pepe: This is, you know, we have a 3 ton per hour milling sugarcane mill, which is small for industrial standards of producing sugar. But, you know, we can mail 30, 40 tons a day easily. And we could we could work. 2 [00:48:00] shifts and mill 100 tons.and we have, you know, our, we have our 4 pot stills and we have, you know, we, we have, we have, we have the tools and we have the place.

it's simply that, this definitely should be revised the, the tax code that the taxes that we pay. Or maybe double or triple, at the end of the day. That what the our

peers in the U. S. pay.

Will: Because you're still paying, you're still paying the full, what is it, like 12 per proof gallon? Is that right?

Pepe: yeah, no, we're paying 12 per product in the in the box.

Will: Ah, okay.

Pepe: So, things we're paying like from 24 to 36 case of taxes, which is what they tax vodka comes from France or gin from Spain or wines from Europe. going back a little bit, there was a law enacted in 2012 that revised a [00:49:00] tax code for craft distilleries in Puerto Rico.

And it was a perfectly rounded project. That said that craft distilleries would pay a 50 percent of the regular rate, which is 2012. I mean, 12 dollars and 50 cents per finished product in a in in in a box. Not not, you know, proof gallon, which would.

Will: Gotcha.

Pepe: Is the way it's done in the US, which is a way it should be done.

So,the law was amended, in a very in in the last session of the approval of the law. And it has a clause that was inserted that stipulates that if a craft distillery bottles anything that is over 40 percent alcohol, we'll pay the full

tax for that product.

I

Will: so so just, just to review, there was a law that reduced this by 50%, [00:50:00] but then they decided you only get the 50 percent discount if you're bottling something that is under 40 percent ABV, which is basically the minimum to actually make something that would be rum, right?

Pepe: Yeah, the minimum to make something that you can call rum by the federal government and by room to Puerto Rico, has to have 40 percent alcohol and has to be made from sugarcane. The TTB, the federal government will not allow you to call it rum if it has less than 40 percent alcohol. Puerto Rico is developing.

A project, the law to incentivize, uh, giving tax benefit. to bring into the fold craft distilleries and their idea was really to bring in all the big moonshiners that are hiding in the mountains that, you know, the underground moonshine

Pitorro

Will: makers

Pepe: makers from the, they wanted to bring them to the legal fold, but when they, they inserted this clause, Pitorro in the [00:51:00] mountains is distilled and it's bottled at 50%.

So, Not a single one came into the folds. So they said, you know, if I make a Pitorro of 39 percent alcohol, nobody's going to buy it. This is not the real. That I make. So it was just a measure to protect the industry. And it's basically a death sentence for

small distilleries. And I,

Will: well, and I, I, I spoke to another distiller who had, another, you know, Puerto Rican distiller who had a product that was being bottled at 39 percent ABV. And it was essentially a, an unaged rum, you know, or a white rum. It might've been filtered and it was 39 percent ABV and there wasn't anything added to it.

But it said on the bottle, it said rum with natural flavors. And I was like, what are the flavors? And the distiller tells me, well, there's nothing in there, but because I bottled it at 39 percent ABV, I [00:52:00] have to put that it's flavored, you know, in order to have rum on there in some way, but I did this because if I make it 1 percent higher, I paid double the taxes on it basically.

So, um, yeah, it's, it's, um, it's tough.

Pepe: it is, it is really tough.

you know, we try to keep. Things that simple and we, we live with the laws that we live and we, my life goal is to try to help and amend these settings that are not right.

That are, that are happening. And it was a TTB I suggest this all the time. Every time they are very nice local office of the TTB in Puerto Rico are incredible. They're, they're super helpful. And they have always, I mean, they have always been,The same as the Puerto Rican government, they have always outstretched their hands.

And, but there are these little, you know, when you look, when you read the fine lines, you know, everybody wants to help. But then you have this little line down here that is killing you. [00:53:00] And, if that isn't revised and you've seen how many craft distilleries are

shutting down in the U. S. right now, every

Will: Yeah, I mean, it happens all the time.

Pepe: There's a, right now, there's, Now, every week, there's three or four, craft distilleries and craft beer, breweries being auctioned, plants that are have five, six years old. They do, you know, they go forward, they do their project if they're working in something for five, six, eight years, and they're not making money.

They simply liquidate it. Let's do something else. And let's move on. so, you know, we, we don't have plans at all of shutting down, but. You know,it might get to a point when I'm not here any longer and that was that Jose Roberto might say, you know what, this is not worth it. keep struggling with this.

There's, we need to play in a, in a level playing field that, you know, isn't,you know, a very steep hill for the, for the, for the, you know, upcoming small [00:54:00] businesses, to try to reach the plateau where the others

sit.

Will: Well, and the, um, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the perception that, you know, you, that your distillery in particular is, benefiting from the cover over tax tremendously that's kind of kept you at an arm's length from some of the Caribbean associations like WIRSPA as well, right?

Because I mean, if you're into rum, you know that, or if you just look at it objectively, right? You have all these other Caribbean nations making rum. They have a collective industry or a collective organization to help the rum industry. if there's one, Island that has this huge advantage in the U S marketplace, that organization is probably not going to be a huge fan of that policy, right?

because it puts some of their producers at a disadvantage in the U S marketplace. You know, they're, they're working with, tighter margins essentially. but the perception is kind of that [00:55:00] that's your distillery too. And you're saying that's not really the case.

Pepe: Yeah, we, we, we, I remember Jose Roberto went to a Lallemand, Lallemand yeast makes this amazing, uh, compulsion, uh,

Will: Alcohol school.

Pepe: the alcohol school in different parts of the world and Jose participated in one, In Quebec, and there was a special rate for WIRSPA members that would get a discount if they participated, and we, we asked the organization that runs the alcohol school, listen, we're a We're Puerto Rico.

We're Caribbean. You know, we're from the Caribbean. We're Puerto Ricans. we're part of the Caribbean. can we benefit from the same discount? And they said, no, you have to be a member of WISPA to, to receive that, that discount, that special rate. And then I, I wrote to WIRSPA and I said, can I belong to where I'm willing to, you know, pay the dues and pay everything [00:56:00] and be where he was part of the United States, but it's part of the Caribbean.

It's part of the United is the territory of the US, but it's an island. It's an island country. Puerto Rico is has its own identity than any other part of the US. And we, you know, we've been part of the US now for 100. 25 years. And before that, we were a colony of Spain for 500 years. And before that, we had Taino Indians roaming around before Columbus arrived.

So we have our own identity and it's a melting pot of these 3 amazing cultures. we come from the African, the Indian, and the white europeans that colonize Puerto Rico, and that is what Puerto Ricans are. and I was told I wish I couldn't, I couldn't belong to their group because Puerto Rico was part of the tax rebate program.

And, simply Puerto Rico was not allowed to participate. And that was a unanimous decision of every single [00:57:00] country in the Caribbean that we couldn't be part of where it's fine. I know my argument was that isn't but I don't receive a single cent of tax rebate. Why should I be penalized? You know, why can't I be part of your movement and benefit of educational programs that you participate compulsions at trade fairs that you guys participate?

Why can't the small craft distilleries in Puerto Rico that don't receive this tax rebate? Uh,not be able to, to, to be part of worst part, which, I honestly, it was kind of hurtful and it seems to me it's even, has, you know, it's discriminative, you know, it's, there is discrimination, Just because Puerto Rico, which is a territory of the U.

S., receives these benefits from the U. S., you know, my, my message to them was, well, what would the British Caribbean islands do [00:58:00] if Great Britain or England would be sending you a tax rebate of all the taxes they collected? And they would send that money to you to help your economy and, and help you go forward and, and help you, you know.

Help your industry progress. Would you refuse that? You know, why should we refuse? Why? Why should the houses in Puerto Rico that receive those benefits, refuse that, you know, and disqualify them from being, you know, from being part of the Caribbean runs the state or association and the. The French Islands the same, the French Islands, everybody knows that, distilleries in the French Islands are, are highly, incentivized by the French government.

It's exactly the same thing.

Will: Yeah, well, I know this is kind of complex territory for the rum cast, but it's, you know, the, the cover over it is such a big part of, shaping the way the rum market looks like. And I think a lot of times people view [00:59:00] it, from kind of a narrow lens, but there, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, there's, there's more to the issue than meets the eye, I think.

And the way it plays out in. what's really like a, a rapidly changing rum landscape on Puerto Rico itself, the way it plays out there as you were just speaking to is there's more than meets the eye there. And, you know, it's, it's really interesting because. As a rum enthusiast, you know, seeing, the, the diversity of all the new craft distilleries in Puerto Rico.

It's really exciting. And, you know, you mentioned crab Island, on via case, you know, I've spoken to Ivan from there. He has a great story, super passionate. you know, I've talked to the co key folks out in Mayaguez, you know, completely different part of the Island again, super passionate. if you go up to Jayuya, there's a distillery there, in the middle of the island in the mountains.

It's very passionate people and, it's really kind of a cool way to get to know different parts of, of, of the island and of the culture [01:00:00] and, behind each of them are these very interesting expressions of rum that are very different. And so it's almost like, you know, if you, if you have some, a, an organization to promote Puerto Rican rum, like.

You're sitting on kind of, you know, from the rum enthusiast perspective, you're sitting on gold with all of these, extremely interesting producers that you could be, getting out there, promoting to the world. So, I hope, you know, I hope we do see more of that, but, to kind of bring everything back home, You've spoken about, you've got the molasses rums that are aged, four to six years now.

You're working on a product name for that. So that'll be interesting to see. What, what else, what should people keep an eye out from? what, what should we expect to see in, you know, the next couple of years from you guys?

Pepe: Well, we're launching a counterpart to our Ronsanto rum, the, three year old age blend of pot still and column. Uh, we're launching a, we're calling it El Rubio, the blonde in Spanish. El [01:01:00] Rubio, because we're not going to charcoal filter our, rum that is aged for a year. So we're launching El Rubio, which will be a one year old white rum that is going to be extremely flavorful.

And it's going to be wonderful, and it has kind of like a light, very light yellowish color because the barrel doesn't part of some color to it. so that's coming out, with Ronsanto and, We're, we're reaching the age that we were waiting to start launching single barrel batches of, we're going to be launching, 100 percent French cognac pot stills or chalviniac, cognac pot stills, 100 percent of that product bottle and it's completely different right now.

We do as it is, is, has a, is a blend. Of a large percentage of the cognac pot still, and it does have a little bit of the lighter, Arnold Holstein pot still, which is [01:02:00] also, you know, it produces a lighter rum. So we, we age both rums that we distilled separately, and then we play with, with the, with the balances.

we're.

Will: Nice.

Pepe: Launching some of the Holstein real as a, as a, as a pure, i identity on itself, as it comes out of the whole stain, which, you know, is a, you get the vapors of the alcohol, in the pot, and then it goes

into the rectifying column, and then you get.

Will: Right. It's like a hybrid still.

Pepe: it's still that you get a finished product in 1 day and it's a lighter product. So we have, we're launching some of the, we're launching a brand, That rum and we're launching the 100 percent still, which we tried the other day, and it knocked our socks off. And also we're launching the, well, we, I tried yesterday, as I mentioned the 4 to 5 year old product. [01:03:00] That will be coming out. So Ronsanto will have three expressions three or four different expression, including the single barrels and a single pot still cognac pot still, which is a completely different profile and we'll keep always doing the way we. the actual Ron Pepon.

it's just going to have a variation on the label and we're going to start being more niche specific, going after the, the, you know, the rum lovers market, people who are always, you know, looking out to try something different, a new expression. So we're very, very excited that we're going to be.

Launching this and last night, I, after I tried these rooms that we were trying yesterday for the 1st time last night, I felt that we've been so blessed. and God has been so great with us because, you know, we've basically walked, you know, into a, into a, a dark room with without knowing where we were going and [01:04:00] we have been illuminated by a lot of, by a lot of good people.

People in Puerto Rico and friends like Frank and other people's other people from other friends from other parts of the world. But it's a, it's amazing that, you know, we stumbled into these barrels and that we selected these barrels and, they were recommended. As a matter of fact, by Luis, and he said, these are, this is, this is what you want to get.

And the barrels are so amazing. And the product that is coming out now is so incredible that it really, you know, we feel really blessed, to that cities have gone that way because things can go south easily. if you, you know, you don't do things right, but what we, what we have right now in store, I am super excited when we launched all these products. It's going to be, it's going to knock your socks off and also, this is the 1 thing that really makes us [01:05:00] viable and competitive and give us the opportunity to survive is that what we're creating is a very small batch. handcrafted rum, made with absolute love and passion and what the result of what we're bottling.

We're bottling straight from the barrel. It just goes through a filter. We just reduce the alcohol level percentage with very, very clean water. And. And once you know, when you try the quality of the product, you know, we don't we don't have a commitment to sell 20, 000, 000 cases or 10, 000, 000 cases or a million cases or 500, 000 cases.

We're making in cases. So the nectar that is going in there is such as, you know, is,

is the nectar.

John: well, speaking of

going into a dark room and not knowing where we're going, I have a a new segment, Pepe, that I, I would like to see if you would be willing to try out with me. We're going from super serious and some of the stuff we just [01:06:00] talked about a few minutes ago to super silly here. So, um, we'll just see where this goes, but Pepe, if you're, if you're willing, what I have here is just a couple of minutes we can spend talking a little bit about something.

I'm, I'm going to ask you to rate. Some cocktail recipes and the names that I've come up with for some, some San Juan Artisan Distillers, type of things. Now, there's one thing you have to know going into this, Pepe, is that I am not a mixologist in any way, shape, or form. so these are clearly just coming up with, starting with maybe a name, and then going back and trying to figure something out that might work with that.

So, what I want you to do is, you're gonna give me a rating. I'm gonna give you a recipe and a name, And you're gonna tell me a 10 sounds like, Amazing, give me one right now. A 5 is like, Eh, whatever. You know, take it or leave it. And a 1 is like, John, I'm actually more depressed now for having heard you speak this and don't ever want to hear about it again.

Alright? What do we

think?

Pepe: Absolutely sir.

John: Here we're gonna go. Let's

just

Will: a new [01:07:00] experience for me too, by the way. I didn't know this

was coming, so I'm really excited to see where this

goes.

John: Alright, so. So let's see. The first.

Pepe: I'm having great fun. I mean, this is what I enjoy most.

You guys, and I mean, we've touched some serious issues and we've analyzed the industry, we've analyzed the craft distillery movement in Puerto Rico, the general situation of Puerto Rico, what we need to do to improve and evolve and progress

and let the industry grow.

So I think it's, it, it, it, it's a great moment to lighten up a little bit.

John: That's right. Let's balance it out.

Okay, So here we go. Here's my first one. I've got a few of these, okay?

This is gonna be Ron Pepon. We take Ron Pepon, the aged anejo, okay? We put in with Red Bull on the rocks in a Tom Collins glass, and we call it some pep in your step.

Pepe: Oh my goodness.

I'm sorry, but I, I not, a fan.

John: Don't be sorry. [01:08:00] We need your honest opinion here. So, where are we going with like, is this like a three, a one, a two?

Pepe: And I, I, I would say that I would say that 50% of the population might like it, uh, percent of the population like it more as a more natural thing instead of a high energy drink. so I, I have never even thought of

that, honestly. You caught me off guard, so I

John: Okay.

Pepe: say maybe.

John: So you,

you're definitely not one of the 50%.

Will: like a two. like,

John: It Sounds

like a

two,

Will: putting, mixing, mixing

Red

Bull with Ron Pepon Añejo just feels like a

crime to me. So yeah, I, I, let's get

that

John: pretty, pretty good name, you know, especially

Will: Pep

in Your

Step.

John: makes sense.

Will: Yeah. You started with the

name and then you, yeah, that's the trouble you,

can run into with

starting

with the name.

John: Oh, these are all gonna be trouble, Will. All of them. Um, Okay, next one, Pepe. It's, taking some tresclavos, the, the [01:09:00] piña, the sweet piña, right? And we're gonna put in some absinthe and some lime juice.

We're gonna shake this and strain it into a coupe and we call it 3 Nails in the Coffin.

Pepe: I think it sounds amazing. I know that the coffin part

kind of, I wouldn't change that to maybe to have

him I

John: Okay.

Will: more positive connotation.

Yeah.

John: we'll do a version with Malort and that

will be the coffin, and absinthe or something can be heaven. I

gotcha. Okay.

Pepe: think that that would work. Fantastic. I would give that a 10.

John: Wow! Will, we've got a 10!

Will: you're bouncing back. You're bouncing back. See if you can bring it home. I think you got, you got one more of these.

John: Alright.

Oh,

man, I've got so many more, but we're just gonna

do one more

here. Alright. This is a play

on maybe a grey ghost. So we're doing Ron Pepon, white rum, creme de violette, blue curacao, maraschino and lemon juice, served up. And we call this one, Pardon Me, Do You Have Any Grey Pepon?[01:10:00]

Pepe: I sounds fantastic as well. I love that as well. Uh, you know, popular drink we make with Ron Pepon is, lime, lime, dietary. Key lime daiquiri, which is, the Ron Pepon has the perfect balance for that drink. I have never tried a lime daiquiri that has the, the notes of the funkiness and the, sugar cane flavor that comes through the daiquiri.

And this is very similar. I tried a daiquiri like that. They had it added, the maraschino liquor, I think it's called, it's a very small, company in, in, in Northern Italy that they make the best, sherry extract in the world. and it's actually, It sounds similar to that.

I tried that in Positano, one of my

travels and a bar I visited, and it was amazing. And that sounds amazing. I like that a lot.

John: see? Look, I'm winning with this, Will. Alright, I do have one last one, Will. I know you said we should stick

Will: All right, we'll let you, we'll let

John: promised my, wife with this one. Okay,

so, cause I [01:11:00] had to get her

help with it. So, how about this

one, Pepe? And you have so many of the different flavors of tres clavos out there, which I've had the pleasure of trying many of them, and they're all very good.

So what if you've bought all of these, you have them in your home bar, and you throw every tres clavos flavor you have together into into a punchbowl and put some, maybe some 151 or some rompepone or whatever, whatever else you might have in there. You add some ice and you serve it and we call it barcarajo,

Pepe: sounds great.

John: which is basically to heck with it. Right?

Pepe: I think that's amazing. You add a little bit of juice and you have, I mean, the

most magnificent, you know, rum punch you could ever concoction. I think that would be fantastic. I like that idea as well. I think

That's fantastic.

John: I'm a, I'm an idea machine.

Will: That's a, that's a better name too, because, you know, when you talk about combining all the flavors, it makes me think of being a

kid

and going up to the soda machine and, you know, you, you put a little bit of everything and we called [01:12:00] that, we called that a suicide when I was a kid. So we don't want that name for this drink. So I think your name was much better, John. Okay. Well.

John: Pepe. What a good sport you are to go through

Will: thank you for humoring us. and I know we've kept you a couple, we've kept you a couple of hours. I know you've got, you're a busy man. You've got tons of things going on at the distillery. all the projects you just mentioned. And on top of that, you know, working on this new sugarcane field as well and, uh, automating everything.

before we wrap up, is there anything that you wanted to let people know about? Any, anything we didn't cover, before we go?

Pepe: Well, I, first of all, I want to thank you again, your, your invitation to be able to do

Will: Of course.

Pepe: couple of year, it's always a, an honor to be on your podcast and yeah, it's, it's, it's been amazing sharing time with the two of you and you know, that Puerto Rico we're here, Open arms and our guys, so you guys ever want to come down, you know, you have, you'll be [01:13:00] received here for not only by us, but by everyone with open arms.

And basically, our intention is to grow the distillery where at the moment, I'm also open. need to invest in a distillery. you know, a substantial amount of money, possibly a couple of million dollars, to reach our new goals and our new plans. And we are open to, you know, if there's any, companies out there, distilleries, people related to the industry that might be interested in, in, in approaching us.

we would like. We want to make partnerships and with different in different ways, and we're open to ideas. And I think that you need to have alliances, and to be able to progress and, and, and shorten the time of growth. If you connect to the right people, that [01:14:00] will accelerate the progress of a company.

And we see this happening all the time. So we're open to alliances with, the stories, the investors that might be interested in, in having, part of a participation in a small distillery in Puerto Rico. So anyway, I really appreciate,Yeah, the time you guys have given me and and I think that everything that we have spoken has, you know, it has come out from my heart and I'm calling it as I see it.

I might be, you know, maybe to direct sometimes, but. The truth is the truth. And, you know, we're going to continue doing this because this is what we love to do. And my son loves what it does. And the crew and the staff that we have here in this facility are everyone is amazing. And we get so much support from the local.

bar scene in Puerto [01:15:00] Rico, the, restaurants and, all the people that support us and we get calls from the U. S. I would say on a weekly basis. We get 10 messages. Where can I buy this?

Uh, In New York? Where can I buy this in Texas? Where can I buy this in Chicago? Where can I buy it?

John: In Miami. Miami.

Pepe: I buy it? In Mia, in Miami.

another important message is that, you know, we're, we're looking for disorders, we're looking, we're looking to hook up with, good people that know what we're,

and

Will: Someone, someone, please, please bring this to the mainland U S we would all appreciate it. Yeah. If you're listening, get in touch with Pepe. and also if you're listening and you are planning to go to Puerto Rico, I highly recommend going and visiting San Juan Artisan Distillers. It's a really cool setting, really peaceful out there, a little bit outside the city, kind of, you've got the beautiful sugar cane fields.

It's all kinds of rum to try. It's a, it's a great experience. So go do that. but Pepe, thanks again for coming [01:16:00] on. We really appreciate it and it's been great

catching

Pepe: thank you. Our webpage is San Juan artisan distillers.com. All the information there, San juan artisan distillers.com and all our information is there. Thank you so much.

Will: Yep. Cheers,

Pepe: Bye. Take

Will: Pepe.

All right, everyone. Thanks so much for listening to another episode of the Rumcast. If you'd like to learn more about San Juan Artisan Distillers, we'll put a link up to their website in the show notes, you can check out some of that stuff there. Also, if you'd like to get more Rumcast, you can find us at patreon.

com slash the Rumcast. We're doing bonus episodes, happy hours, all kinds of good stuff. Uh, we're actually about to record a bonus episode right after this with our thoughts on the New high ester

blend from El Dorado. So getting, all kinds of stuff like that there on the, Patreon side [00:18:00] of the rum cast.

So check that out. if you'd like to get more rum cast, support The

show. Also, we always love to hear from listeners. If you have

questions, suggestions, anything like that, you can email us

host at rum cast. com that's H O S T at rum cast. com or they can find us on social media, John, where can they find us?

John: Yeah, if you're a fan of the shorter format, go to social media at

The Rum cast. at Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram and you can comment on one of our posts there

or hit us up on

the

DMs and we'll, we'll reply to you then. If

you want to tell us how terrible a floral daiquiri is and the idea of it, please feel free

to reach out and let us know.

So, you know,

Will: El Amparo Daiquiris! It's

gonna be a thing. Go out there and order an El Amparo Daiquiri. We're gonna call it the John Gulla Daiquiri by the before it

John: Oh no no no no no

no.

No,

Will: said and done.

John: the Gullah Daiquiri is already a

thing and that's using the Fiji

and pineapple

juice in the

Daiquiri. Remember? Come on.

Will: I thought that,

was the

I thought that was the Bulla

John: but it's now the Gullah Daiquiri. It's just close

enough.

Will: I wasn't informed [00:19:00] that, that you got that. I guess it makes sense. Yeah, it's like one one or two letters off, I think. I can't remember if there's one L or two in

John: It's basically the

same thing. So it's, it's already there. We may as well just

make the leap there. So, and, and by the way, look, I won't throw shade on

just Will here. It's also me.

If the,

this segment that we did at the end of this with, Pepe was absolutely the

worst thing and worst idea we've ever come up with, you know, let us know.

Uh, and, and tell us, hey, go back to the, the rapid fire, please. Because, you know, that it is what it is. Just, just give us your honest feedback.

That's all we're asking for. Talk to us. Let us know what's going

on.

Will: That's

true. It's not like Pepe

turned down the rapid fire. John threw this out as

rapid fire replacement for this

episode. So, you know, I don't I don't know if the

people are going to be amenable to that, John. So

we might get some angry feedback.

John: know if, if you don't evolve, you die, right? So I'm, I'm trying some new things. We're trying to, you know, spice it up a little bit here. Put El daiquiri, same

thing. We're going to put,

we're going to put that together in a different segment and see what happens. And sometimes you [00:20:00] get floral

daiquiris and it is what it is, you know,

Will: All right, everyone, get out there, experiment with your daiquiris and let us know what you end up with. We'd love to hear from you. Anyway, until next time. Cheers.

John: cheers.